Post-referendum thoughts [Stoat]

Just as I wrote down my thoughts pre-vote, and advised against leaving, I’ll write down my thoughts a day or so after, for posterity. Doubtless it will be grateful. First off I like my son am already bored with the Diana-esque levels of news clogging that the vote has caused, so I apologise for adding to it. Feel free to comment at ATTP or Sou if you like. Or here.

But before all that, a picture of a rose, otherwise everything would be somewhat depressing. Fittingly, it is slightly downcast and perhaps past its finest bloom. But it’s a brand-new forward looking Perse rose.

Anyway, just as the pre-vote news was full of drivel, so is the post-vote. Despite the dire warnings of financial disaster, and the apparently-huge falls on the day, that’s mostly froth. The rate fell steeply on the Friday from 1.31 to 1.23, but over a 5-year period that’s unexciting. Only a rather longer time will tell. With a bit of luck house prices might fall but I’m not counting on that either.

More interestingly, I was proved a better seer than NB, in that I correctly predicted that if he lost, Cameron would resign and leave his successor to sort out the mess steer the ship of state to the exit. I think cameron was correct to do that. There’s a slight downside, in that it adds some uncertainty at a time we could do without same (or not. We do at least have certainty he will resign, and that he’ll stay till October, which tides us over for the next few months. Had he not resigned there would certainly have been months of speculation about whether he would or not or be forced out or not). Having argued strongly for Remain, he could hardly lead the negotiations of Leave. On a personal level I’m sure he’s heartily sick of the whole thing. There’s also the upside that this plausibly delays our formal invocation of article 50 until the next PM is chosen, probably in October, and who knows we may have seen sense by then. For my foreign readers – and, it seems, for the benefit of some EU leaders – I should point out that the next PM will be chosen by Tory MPs, not by the country. And that the referendum was advisory, and doesn’t of itself invoke article 50; indeed the exact mechanism by which we do that is unclear: most likely, a vote in the House of Commons, probably after the new PM is chosen (I [Cameron] think it’s right that this new prime minister takes the decision about when to trigger Article 50 and start the formal and legal process of leaving the EU). The upside of that delay is that just possibly we might see sense and change our minds; though I’m doubtful about that. For example, a majority of MPs could choose to vote against the article 50 bill; but it’s unlikely. There’s a petition with (at present) 1.5 M signatures to retrospectively change the rules and require a 60% threshold on a 75% turnout – very unlikely to be enacted – but the Beeb article on that does contain the intriguing However, there is talk around Westminster – in the wake of a plunging currency and falling share prices – of whether any deal on Brexit negotiated with the EU should then put to a referendum further down the line. That could just be a way out, but only if a large number of people end up agreeing that Brexit is a clear mistake.

While we’re on “timing” I’ll notice that several EU leaders have said oh get on with it then, leave quickly if you’re going” (h/t Timmy) but as Timmy points out, that’s not something they are in charge of, at least not formally; we get to decide when to put our notice in. Perhaps that gives us some leverage in the negotiations? But perhaps not much.

The In vs Out map is striking (I’ve cropped Scotland since it was all In). Apart from London, the Home Counties, Cambridge and Shire, Oxford, Norwich, the Welsh Foreshore and some misc other places, its a sea of Out. Which reflects I think the division between Us and Them. The most common theme of “them” I’ve seen on the news is that it’s those who’ve done badly over the last few decades who voted Out, apparently under the impression that Out, being a change, would be better. It might be; but I’m dubious it will be, for them. If there’s an economic downturn they’re the most likely to get shafted. The other theme was “them” sticking one to the “metropolitan elite” but the same comment applies.

Scotland looks entirely likely to have a second referendum on independence. Without thinking it out too carefully I think – assuming we don’t reconsider our exit – that they’re likely to have it, and to vote to Leave the UK and Remain in the EU, and the EU will be happy to keep them. Oh what a tangle that will create. Leave itself will create a considerable legal tangle. That has a benefit – it will tie up a lot of idiots who might otherwise go around creating new laws – but a cost: we’ll have to pay all their salaries, and they will inevitably get many things wrong, and the courts will be snarled up with cases of whose law applies to what. I’m not sure how big all these frictional costs are.

One thing curiously unremarked, to me, is the way misc EU folk have said “well, if you’re going to leave, we’re certainly going to give you bad terms to try to discourage everyone else” (with Angela Merkel a notable exception). That very strongly puts forward the view that the only reason countries would stay, is because they’ll stomp on your faces if you leave. In other words, its close to an admission that they too think the EU is a bad thing. I would far rather see them confident; have them say “of course we’ll do our best to negotiate fair terms for all that will make both sides as prosperous as possible”; making the point that people stay in the EU because they want to be in. There’s no sane economic reason for the EU to put up trade barriers with the UK (errm, or with anyone else in fact; as various but to me most obviously Timmy have pointed out, the correct action is to reduce all import tariffs to zero immeadiately without negotiation. But Merchantilists Rool, no matter how stupid that is).

I leave you with more roses.

from ScienceBlogs http://ift.tt/28Td7vg

Just as I wrote down my thoughts pre-vote, and advised against leaving, I’ll write down my thoughts a day or so after, for posterity. Doubtless it will be grateful. First off I like my son am already bored with the Diana-esque levels of news clogging that the vote has caused, so I apologise for adding to it. Feel free to comment at ATTP or Sou if you like. Or here.

But before all that, a picture of a rose, otherwise everything would be somewhat depressing. Fittingly, it is slightly downcast and perhaps past its finest bloom. But it’s a brand-new forward looking Perse rose.

Anyway, just as the pre-vote news was full of drivel, so is the post-vote. Despite the dire warnings of financial disaster, and the apparently-huge falls on the day, that’s mostly froth. The rate fell steeply on the Friday from 1.31 to 1.23, but over a 5-year period that’s unexciting. Only a rather longer time will tell. With a bit of luck house prices might fall but I’m not counting on that either.

More interestingly, I was proved a better seer than NB, in that I correctly predicted that if he lost, Cameron would resign and leave his successor to sort out the mess steer the ship of state to the exit. I think cameron was correct to do that. There’s a slight downside, in that it adds some uncertainty at a time we could do without same (or not. We do at least have certainty he will resign, and that he’ll stay till October, which tides us over for the next few months. Had he not resigned there would certainly have been months of speculation about whether he would or not or be forced out or not). Having argued strongly for Remain, he could hardly lead the negotiations of Leave. On a personal level I’m sure he’s heartily sick of the whole thing. There’s also the upside that this plausibly delays our formal invocation of article 50 until the next PM is chosen, probably in October, and who knows we may have seen sense by then. For my foreign readers – and, it seems, for the benefit of some EU leaders – I should point out that the next PM will be chosen by Tory MPs, not by the country. And that the referendum was advisory, and doesn’t of itself invoke article 50; indeed the exact mechanism by which we do that is unclear: most likely, a vote in the House of Commons, probably after the new PM is chosen (I [Cameron] think it’s right that this new prime minister takes the decision about when to trigger Article 50 and start the formal and legal process of leaving the EU). The upside of that delay is that just possibly we might see sense and change our minds; though I’m doubtful about that. For example, a majority of MPs could choose to vote against the article 50 bill; but it’s unlikely. There’s a petition with (at present) 1.5 M signatures to retrospectively change the rules and require a 60% threshold on a 75% turnout – very unlikely to be enacted – but the Beeb article on that does contain the intriguing However, there is talk around Westminster – in the wake of a plunging currency and falling share prices – of whether any deal on Brexit negotiated with the EU should then put to a referendum further down the line. That could just be a way out, but only if a large number of people end up agreeing that Brexit is a clear mistake.

While we’re on “timing” I’ll notice that several EU leaders have said oh get on with it then, leave quickly if you’re going” (h/t Timmy) but as Timmy points out, that’s not something they are in charge of, at least not formally; we get to decide when to put our notice in. Perhaps that gives us some leverage in the negotiations? But perhaps not much.

The In vs Out map is striking (I’ve cropped Scotland since it was all In). Apart from London, the Home Counties, Cambridge and Shire, Oxford, Norwich, the Welsh Foreshore and some misc other places, its a sea of Out. Which reflects I think the division between Us and Them. The most common theme of “them” I’ve seen on the news is that it’s those who’ve done badly over the last few decades who voted Out, apparently under the impression that Out, being a change, would be better. It might be; but I’m dubious it will be, for them. If there’s an economic downturn they’re the most likely to get shafted. The other theme was “them” sticking one to the “metropolitan elite” but the same comment applies.

Scotland looks entirely likely to have a second referendum on independence. Without thinking it out too carefully I think – assuming we don’t reconsider our exit – that they’re likely to have it, and to vote to Leave the UK and Remain in the EU, and the EU will be happy to keep them. Oh what a tangle that will create. Leave itself will create a considerable legal tangle. That has a benefit – it will tie up a lot of idiots who might otherwise go around creating new laws – but a cost: we’ll have to pay all their salaries, and they will inevitably get many things wrong, and the courts will be snarled up with cases of whose law applies to what. I’m not sure how big all these frictional costs are.

One thing curiously unremarked, to me, is the way misc EU folk have said “well, if you’re going to leave, we’re certainly going to give you bad terms to try to discourage everyone else” (with Angela Merkel a notable exception). That very strongly puts forward the view that the only reason countries would stay, is because they’ll stomp on your faces if you leave. In other words, its close to an admission that they too think the EU is a bad thing. I would far rather see them confident; have them say “of course we’ll do our best to negotiate fair terms for all that will make both sides as prosperous as possible”; making the point that people stay in the EU because they want to be in. There’s no sane economic reason for the EU to put up trade barriers with the UK (errm, or with anyone else in fact; as various but to me most obviously Timmy have pointed out, the correct action is to reduce all import tariffs to zero immeadiately without negotiation. But Merchantilists Rool, no matter how stupid that is).

I leave you with more roses.

from ScienceBlogs http://ift.tt/28Td7vg